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科技早知道
我是导演
我是雅贤
Hello
大家好
欢迎来到科技早知道
我是丁教达言
那今天这期节目是一期英文的访谈
节目的嘉宾是near io
他是两本畅销书的作者
Hooked 上瘾以及indrostructurable 专注力的作者
那他其实也同时是斯坦福大学的讲师
然后曾经也是连续创业者
他的作品呢
几乎定义了一个时代的产品的逻辑
也让我们重新在思考专注力是怎么一回事儿
连续创业者
And so i think the promise of product design
It's not to make a lot of money and get rich
It's to solve people's problems
那我想先来聊聊它最知名的这本书叫做上瘾
那这本书出版于二零一四年
当时正是社交媒体崛起的一个时代
尼尔提出了一个后来让无数产品经理都奉为经典的模型
那这个模型就是触发trigger
行动action
奖励reward 以及投入investment
它解释了为什么人们会习惯性的打开一个应用
也提醒产品设计者们
我们并不是在制造功能
我们是在设计人类的行为
那这本书的意义在于
它让硅谷的产品设计者第一次意识到了用户习惯背后的心理学
同时尼尔也在这本书里面提到了一个到现在为止还在反复被引用的一个观点
就是操控的道德性the morality of manipulation
那他说
产品可以说服用户去做他们想做但难以坚持的事情
比如像是学习啊
运动啊
存钱啊等等等等
但不应该去胁迫他们去做本不愿意做的事情
那这种边界感也正是我们现在ai 时代下重新被提起的一些话题
那如今我们谈ai
我们谈注意力
我们谈人际关系
上影里面的这些观点是否还有用呢
那作者的答案是是的
那因为人性没有变
那我们依然在追求奖励
我们依然在追避不适
那ai 让一切变得其实是更加的精准更加的迅速了
那尼尔泰自己有一句话是这么总结的
The attitude compoxonness is for thought that distraction is not a cure ffar not not that there's something wrong with you
You don't have some kind of brain disease
It's simply that you haven't learned how to deal discover the entidto to imulsiveness is rethought
这句话是什么意思呢
那就是抵抗冲动的解药是预先思考
那我非常喜欢这句话
它提醒我们真正的专注力不是靠意志力
而是靠的是事先的设计
比如他提到了两个非常实用的技巧
第一个就是十分钟的规则
当你想要分析要去做这个事情的时候啊
你先给自己十分钟的时间
然后静下来
你可以什么都不做
而这十分钟过完了之后
再去做你想要去做的那件事情
大部分的时间你可能就已经不太想去做那件事情了
那第二个就是时间和time boxing
不要只写这个土豆的代办清单啊
然后是把这个时间真正的放到日历里面
让注意力其实是有一个边界感
What's the source of all human motivation
It's not that pursued of pleasure
But rather everything we could do is for one reason and one reason only
And that is the desire to escape discomfort
当我们在抱怨某一些科技产品它的上瘾性
抱怨我们的专注力完全被这些产品所涉及到的时候
我们为什么不倒回来想一步
我们的专注力怎么样能够把它掌握在自己的手里
我们不去抱怨产品
然后特别是我们下一代
我们的孩子
怎么样在自己还没有能力的时候
我们就帮他们养成习惯
让他们能够掌控自己的专注力
我觉得这也许是未来几年不管是孩子还是我们都需要重新学习的事情
好了
那欢迎你一起来听一听我和上影专注力的作者聂尔阿o 的这一期访谈
我们聊到了ai 时代的专注力与分心
说服与操控的界限
然后我们也聊到了如何设计让人真正变得更好的产品
那让我们开始吧
嗯
哦
How everyone to do
I'm through to be joined by near iel
Near is the author of two best sellling books hooked and diststractable
He's also taught as stanford and built two tech companies
And his work has shaped how founders everywhere to think about engagement focus and effex
Did it will talk about what's a whole true in ai era was breaking down
And how to build a product that leave people better off
Near think of so much for doing us my pleasure
Thanks
So much for heavy
Me the first time i was listening to your all
Your book was back actwo two thousand forhehefifteen as you remembered
I was blown away
If you were rewriting hook for ai world today
What would you keep
And what would you retire
And what would you add
Yeah Funny
If we did an updated version of the book uh fairly
Recently
And uh the core model nothing has changed
Because human psychology doesn't right we be
Because we've had essentially the same human psychology for two thousand
Thousand years of evolutions
That that lds trmuch in terms of the core model of the whole model trigger action award investment that holds true across time
That holds true across cultures
Um socisocieconomic status
There's hotrno diffediffeuh between hus
When it comes to how they respond to these core psychological factors
What i would revise what to change of the examples
Right so a product that was uh very popular
Uh back in two thousand fourteen
When i first published the book
Uh maybe isn't as hot and sexy
And on everyday's minds
Today
So i think that replaced ever to go with tiktok
Because it's just a more widely understood product
But uh the same core fundamental attribues
Other exactly the same yeah so basically the same like people still bills bored
And people still bills like monmone
And
And the same big right so that at the core of all products essentially is motivation
You know and
And i think it's important thing to understand and take a step back to really process
That you i think a lot of products out made
Made for functional needs and product teams tend to stay very surface level right
My customer said they need this feature
I'd to give them that fuure
Where what i think is
Is a much more fitful strategy is to really understand
And why
Why dedeeper reason
Why we do
What we do
As customers as users
What's the source of all human motivation
It's not the pursuit of pleasure
But rather everything we could do is for one reason and one reason only
And that is the desire to escape discomfort
That everything you do
Even wanting to feel good is psychologically destabilizing so craving desire lasting hunger all of these things
Even though they are in the pursuit of pleasure are themselves motivated by the desire to escape this comfort
And that's incredibly important
Because if your customer isn't in some kind of pain
There's no reason for them to act
Now we never want to create that pain
That's not the goal here well we want to do is to look for that
Discount for that already exists our customers are already in a lot of pain
That pain is is bordom
Loniness
Fatigue
Uncertainty
Anxiethere's a lot of pain in the world
And so i think the promise of product design of what we do for a living
It's not to make a lot money and get rich
It's to solve people's problems
And when we look at it through that length of what is the psychological need not just what is the functional need
But what t's the psychological need
That opens the apature to allows to come up with all kinds of solutions
That we wouldn't come up with if it was just all my customers this specific feature
And so that's really what i try and curge my clients ts do do where they're been very successful is looking brother at these core psychological ical ds that of what drives us not just to click and buy
But what drives us to do everything
Which is the avoidance up is comfort
I understand
But you also mention in new previous interviews and people will will be biercating
There are people have so much free time they want to kilill
And there are people i trying fulfilling their curiosity
And then they don't want to be like on a mdless scrolling in the death
So do you think that we should encourage a latter one not the previous once
So i'm not a difficult
I'm not a leader of a country
I not not difficker
So i
I'm not it's
It's difficult
For me to say what we should do on a societal level and frankly
I don't know it's it's one's 's job to tell people what they should do with their time
Why is watching golf on tv
Somehow morally superior to playing a video game
But i don't know what's
What's the difference
Why is one bit than the other
Ah so i think
I think we have to take a step back and realizze that even the fact that we are having this conversation is a sign of the incredible luxury
We have to live in the stain age
I mean for thousands and thousands of years
People were struggling to just feed themselves in their family
Still to this day
Bliings of people on the face of the earth are not thinking about
Oh I'm
I spending my time on tiktok
Thinking about
How do i
How do i see my kids
And so this is a very high class problem to have luluxury the time time scscroll
Animlessly right
So so i take like a eleatus
Yeah
Ah yeah
Extremely right
If you're on a factory floor
And you're making iphones
All day you're not throwing to talk
You're very busy
Um
So it's really the leasure class that even has this problem now how people spadvtime and think think ds to be a personal decision
I don't think it's up to us to mandate or to encourage or addicted now what you can do as a product designer
What you do have control over is what cypproproducts
You built and so part of my advice
I think a huge competiadvantage in product designer is to build for yourself
If you look at the change makers over the past twenty years of technology innovation
When it comes to the consumer space
And even to some exttent the enterprise space
It's people who build products
That they themselves desperately needed right right
Zcckberg made what was called the facebook on harvard campus
Because he needed it right
He wanted to meet girls
And that's why he made the facebook uh
When you think about twitter
When when you think about google
When you think about mazon
These people were building something that they needed in the world
They wanted to see exist
And i think that gives you a huge competitive vanange number one
If you build something that you believe needs to exist
You have access to the hardest part of party design
Which is designing for someone who actually need the product right
Building something people want an as program says is not trivial
It sounds simple
And we all think
Oh
We know what people want
And
And you builbuild for somebody else if you build for somebody in a different for
For somebody or uh at a company you don't understand
Or um an industry
You're not super familiar with you are very likely to make big big mistakes in your subjects
Whereas if you build for yourself
You have a huge competitive
Because you're the consumer
You know what you want
And in secondly
Even if that product is a commercial failure
It's a practical success
Because
Even if you build something that just you do yourself really need in the world
That's already success because you can't
You can't control all the exaggence facfactors
Can't control eviiting attaack in the market
You can't guarantee commercial success
You can't guarantee that i build something i want
That i think is very useful
And i think if you do that you are much more likely if you build something as useful to itley somebody
You do you're much more likely that people also build something that's useful to millions of other people
But what i see often is the mistakes that people build for this and more fiice 对person out there
And when i asked them
Hey
Would you actually use this is there something that would bring joy and and satisfaction in your own life
Then really i wondn't use it
Those are the kind of products that tend to fail
But do you think that the founders
Entrepreneur they should have have aa new guidline not getting people just minine screwing for hours
An hours
And then they should be have it like a conscious mine
Like did there any ethical guidelines for them
Or were you think that's just for users decide so in hohot that was publishing
Twenty
Twenty fourteen so long before this
When i first publish hook
I had to convince people that consumer ssysychology work right i had to convince people that
That you can use these tactics that increase engagement
Because of the time
People just thought ooh ucker er just got lucky h aere's now
Now don't
Don't have to make that argument anymore
Now everybody know that they're using psychology
Ical tactics to get you hooked uh
And so i hope kind of expose that
So that we could all use it and not just for social media and awhreand now don't to stay away
Away
If luyou yyhh you know know proit it or you can use it for good so hooked
I didn't write hooked for the social media companies and the game companies
That's where i stle the secrets from right the idea was to use those techniques
So that we can build all kinds of products that benefit people so footboall d use the hook model to get people hook to exercise
Um do lingingo use the hook model to get people hooked to learning a new language
Ah you can in financial services get people hooked to saving money
There's all kinds ways we can get people hooked for good
That's the point of hook is not to help people
You know with for volity
But to use it for good
And so the ethical guideline and it
It's in the very first edition of the book
It's calall the morality of manipulation
That manipulation tends to have a negative connotation
Which uh i don't think is warranted
That manipulation is not necessarily good or bad
Manipulation just means you're changing someone's feelings
Emotions
Behaviors
But that could be used for different ends
So on one end of the spectrum is what's called persuadation
Persuades when when help people people do things
That they themselves want to do
But for lack of good experience design don't do
So we all want want to exercise
We want to eat right
We want to learn new languages
We want to be more productive
We want to connect with family
We want to save money
But we don't cause it's hard
So technology can help us do those things
By persuading us to do the things
Wewe get ourselves want to do
That's not only ethically correct
We should encourage more of it
If you have the ability to you have ensave money
Eat right
Be healthier
Connect with family
And you're not doing it
That's uneffeical right
Because that persuasive technology on the other end of the spectrum is coercion
Coersion is the opposite of persuasion coercion
When you get people to do something they did not want to to do
And there's
There's almost nobody who can ethically do that other the government
Government
Government can thsay y you're speaking here's a ticket
And re's re's cose to pay it even if you don't want to pay
You have to pay it a ticket
So the only people society that can can cause people legally typically coercion is illegal
So you could use that the tactics that i talabout for either persuadation or cocoversion
And when i talk about in the book is to make sure you're you using them only for persuasation
Because if you're trying to coerce people not only is eethicbad ad it's ad for that can might do business with you ever
And then if
If you trick them
If you got them to do something later regret not only are they not to do business with you ever
Again theygoing to tell all all their ds do business with you either ther it really doesn't pay over the long tern very very few time
I've never heard of any companies that can sustain their business models through coersion so basically still let you want them people to serve their own goals
Instead of like having them to class slip away in some a bad habits brape now many times you know like for example what you said about scrolling um again like why is watching tv different from scrolling
I don't know
I think the the part of you put a very well in previous interviews
Like if you plan a vacation
Where you plan some recreational activities
So that that's great
But if you're like kina compulsively doing things right
But dosds like bad
So so that's the
I think now we're looking out of through different lengths
You were asking about as a product designer
As a product designer
I don't think you have a special obligation to tell people
Hey
You know you're watching too much right does does the news media to cnn or the neyortimes or fox news say hey
You're watching too much tv
No
嗯嗯
So why is the social media companies tell you
Hey
You know this is
This is pointless
It's entertainment
There's nothing wrong with entertainment
What's the difference between watching it on tv or reading a bloor or magazine or scrowing on phphone
It's is a new ens of curcuring board frankly um
So that's from the lens of the product maker nap if we change that perspective
And now we go into the users mine
And this is the subject of my second book and distractive
Now weve got a whole another discussion
Now it's about how do we is the consumers of this technology
Knowing that the people who make it will not tell us to use it less right
It's stupid to think that the government or the product maker is going to come in
And tell us how to use things
Properly it's gonna happen rather we ourselves need to take some responsibility and realized that not our fault that that things exist take tags
Not going to tell you to stop
New your times
Not going to tell you
It's no going to tell you to stop
Hey
It's not their job
Right right
Hey
It's nethlix stop making television show so interesting
Hey Your
Your movie to my stuppid
Well
That's stupid
That's why we want these
These
Because
Because they're engaging
And so it's up to us as consumers to figure out what is serving us and what we serving
If you feel
Feel like uuh your wasting time that you regret the time you spent with these technologies
Thankfully
There's many things you can do
But and so that's what we gin to this framework
That's what instractables all about hope
K is how do you build good habits through technology and then indistractables about how do you break these bad habits with technology
And that's not necessarily easy work and all good things in life are difficult
You want to have a beautiful relationship with your spouse takes work
You want to raise great kids takes work
And want have an amazing career takes work
And so ii think it's unrealistic to expect ah us to just know how to deal with these technologiwe have to learn as all bath
Right when when cars were first invented
You know any car accident the were
And yet we see traffic ffatalities decreasing per miles driven
Because cars got safer and safer and people learned how to use these these technologies
Right so that's what we're going through now right so we have these new technologies like social media
Like ai
And of course they cause harm
They cause a lot of goods
But more good ds than bad as i believe
But we're still learning
We're stumbling through how to use these tools correckling
So that's what i want to to add to the conversation in distractable in my book is some pretty basic but not obvious techniques that we can use
And that we should definitely teach our children
Because look the world is only becoming a more distracting place
So i wanted to educate people in frank
Educate myself
I wrote the book for me
Because i was incredibly distracted
And so i needed to figure for myself
How can i make sure that i do what i say i'm going to do
Ok ok g
Yeah
I actually learn from your techninie e um talk to your daughter about not playing on ipad for too long
My daughter is almost four years old
So we create the list
This to do list for the whole day
And then she's very excited to ross ss
Everything
Even the the laundry
Even like clean the room
Wwas even amazing
Yeah Wow
So i think that
That's a beautiful example
Right again
What your brain is constly trying to do
Is to save effort
Is to escape this comfort
And so for a lot of people
The easiest thing they can do is here's
Here's the device
Here's the ipad
Here's the phone
Go go be quiet and frankly
That's not the technologiy's fault
That's the fault of lazy parents
Right where's what you did just very smart
You sat down with your kid and said hey
How do you want spend your time
There's nothing wrwith be going on the ipad
That's fine you can watch a program
You gueas long as as age appropriate what else you wanted to do
You want to go
And so that's actually not that different from what we should do
As adults as well is the plan our day
Because if you don't plan your time
Someone is going to plan it for you
You're gongo go to that defaut t descrolling it away
Or clicking it away
Or drinking it away
Or smoking it away
Unless you decided in advance how you want to spend your time
And so that's
It's very important
Teach our children
This is the second step
We sget the first step which is actually more important
But the second step is to make time for traction
That you have to plan an dave
If
If you don't plan your day
If you don't know what what is traction
If you know what what is you wanted to do for that time
嗯
Don't be surprised
If everything is a distraction
Because you didn't plan your day right
You have a great model in the book
And also in some of your interviews
The entido to impulsiveness is force up
That's so awesome right
Thank you
I'm glad
Like that that
So that's really the summary of my fifteen years uh of research of this video
That's really to take away the retitido to imposiveness is for thought the distraction
It's not a character flaw
It's not that there's something wrong with you
You don't have some kind of brain disease
It's simply that you haven't learned how to deal with this comfort
What class do we take in school
That taught us how to deal with this comfort
But i didn't take such a class
And so we never learn this
And so what do we do
We find ways to deal with impossisivity
Right we click it away
We scrowled away
We drink it away
We drfind ways to deal with this comfority
And so we have to learn that skill of dealing with impossibility
And the way to deal with impulsivity is to plan ahead that what most people do is they leave it up to last minute
Right if you're anna diet and the trafelate cake is on the fork
You're going to eat it too late
If you utrtry to quit smoking
But the cigarettes in your hand it's too late
You're going to smoke it
If you sleep next to your cell phone every night it's the first thing
You're going to reach for in the morning
It's too late
So the the antidote to implicity ity to plplan
Ahead that if you plan today there's no distraction
You can't overcome tomorrow
It's planning and wilpower
Well whilel power is
Is a tricky
Is a tricky one we're not even sure
If whilel powis a real thing
There's a lot of conflicting research and in psychology around what is whilelpower and a few years ago
There was this mental model that a lot of people
Kind of adopted that whilel power is like a
Like a battery charge right on your phone
That you can see okay one perpercent eighpercent seventy percent
Forty
Forty percent that kind
Kind decreases the more you use it
And there was some original research showing that this was the case
And now it turns it out
That's not true
That in fact
There's only one group of people who run out of wilpower
It is called the ego depletion
That there's in fact that it does exist
But only in one group of people use whillpower like they would you know battery on a phone or gas in a guesting
And it turns out
The only only ggroup people of will power power are people who believe that whilelpower is a deplete able resource
So this is really really important
Because what it tells it is that if you expect to be drained of will power
Or you expect to have a lot of will power becomes true
But it's all that our beliefs
It's all about expectations
It's not reality
Because whilel power isn't a resource
Will power isan emotion
Just a feeling
And so that's the proper way to think of that we don't run out of feelings
You don't run out of happiness
You don't run n out of anger
You don't run out of boredom
It's not a resource
It's a feeling
It's an emotion
And so that's a much healthier way to look at it
You because the reason
I'm
I'm hesitant to say you need will power
It's because many times people follow these techniques they try and be productive
And if they say uh i don't feel like it
I don't have wheelpower right now so i quit
And that's terrible
That's very councounter productive
You don't need wilpower
Wer
It's just a eleling
So how do we get now whalpopower
But we keep where you wanted to do
And then you like chging along
Like what keep ep going along
Ah what we kind of skip step on which is
Which is important
So it's mastering the internal triggers
So ah knowing that
That everything we do is about the desire to escape this comfort
What we need our techniques ready to go
We need a toolbox full of different techniques that we can use
Whenever we don't feel like doing something we need to recognize that hard work is hard
Everything worth having in life is hard
And that's okay
I think we get into this
We expect everything to feel good and be easy
Who said
嘿嘿嘿
Alright
So being able to recognize that things worth having are difficult
Having a good relationship difficult
Raising kids difficult
Right
It requires effort
And when we try and make it easy
Youyou come lazy
It's so optimbut
But if you do what everybody else does and raising their kids
You're going to have a kid
Do just like everybody else is kid
But if you want to have an exceptional kid
Who has a great life and who has an amazing relationship with you
You're going to have
Think
Think yourself
You
You put a lot of work and do it
Yeah
It's a lot of work
And it's
It's interesting
It takes the kind of work
That requires some forthought
Right like what you did
Which is so smart
You planned ahead to think okay
Today's friday tomorrow saturday
My kids not going to school
School should i going
Going to day care
What do we want to do right
It's forthought
And that's the way
We should do a lot of the important things in our life
Now then requires some work
A lot of people
Who are i'm too busy
I don't know time for this stuff
And they just go with the flow
They do with society
He tells them to do
And that's why they get media ocer results
So what we have to do is to have a back back to the question around emotion or regulation
是的
Is realized that distraction is always an escape for this comfort
So what am i going to to do
How do i prepare in advance
Knowing that this task are going to be difficult
I know i'm not going to feel like going to the gym
I know that working on that book is difficult
What tools will i have in place
So that when i don't feel like it
What i don't want to do it
Because it's hard
What do i do the default is to escape
The default is let me you to check the news
I worry about
About body
Body's problems
Because 是好样
是玩
Throw on tiktok
Watching youtube videoo look at sports
Whatever to escape the discovered
I think that for most people that's a big revelation
When they think uh wait it in it
I'm actually checking tiktok
Not because tiktok is so interesting
I'm going to tiktok
Because what what i'm working on is so boring too that's the real reason okay
So wake up realized that's why you're doing
It re's nothing on tiktok
That's so amazing 对不对
It's just that way you're working on socks
It's hard so instead
What you need to do is to figure when i feel like escaping the task at hand
What do i do instead of going on tikark
And so that's where in the book and indistract by i give over a dozen
Different tools that you can use
Techniques that you can use that instantly come to mind that what you will do instead
Let me give one example
Okay
So um
I've been a professional author for over fifteen years now and every day
When i write all i want to do is distracted
I want to check email
I want to go go ask chatch gpt something i want to look at youtube videos
I also worwork from home
When i'm in the us in china
I work with with my team in office
So it's really hard for me to be chme in my yelexexactly i meet me too
I work on my own
And it's very easy for me to do something else
So what do i do about that i have a series of tools that i know i can use
Whenever i feel like i need to escape
So as opposed to going on you to be particuocor checking the news or whawhatever here's what i do insteone of one of my favorite techniques called the ten minute rule
That ten in a rule says that i can give in to any distraction
Ok i can do whatever that thing is that that i want to do
Whether it's check email or the news or whatever i can do it
But not right now i have to wait ten minutes
So what i'll do is i set
I settle on my
My phone of my watch
Or say okay at a time of for ten minutes
Now i have a choice to make at any time i can either get back to the writing
Or i can do it's called surf the urge
Surfing the urge acknowledges that these uncomfortable sensations
The boredom
The loneliness
Fatigue
E cercertainty
Anxiety
Those sensations are temporary
But that's not how we think of them when you experience
Boredom or or lliness or difficult to your fatigue
It feels like it's always going to be there
But that's not true
This is a trick with the brain plays on us
We think we're always going
Going to feel that way
But it's not true what you have to do instead is to realize that these emotions they crust
And then they subside just like a wave
And so what you have to do is to surf that urge just like a surf front
A surf board
And so there's very very different techniques you can use one of my favorites is a montra
Now my montra outshare with you
You can steal it
You can miick up your own
Here's what i tell myself
I close my eyes
I take a deep breath
And i remind myythis this trtrthis is what what fefeels like to get better
This is what it feels like get better
And just saying that two three
Three four just taking king deep breath waiting a minute okay
And now i can get back to the task at hand
And sometimes i literally sit there for ten minutes
Like this that's okay
Sometimes that happens that's fine
But nine times at a ten
I remind myself
This is what it feels like to get better
Better don't need
Need to expected to be easy
It's supposed to be hard
Then i just i'm creating that space between that impulse to let me just go
Check email
Let me get just go
Do that thing i create that space between my impulse
And what i really want and by doing that nine times at a ten
I get back to the task at hand
And so what happened is over time
That the ten minute
Minute becomes twelve minutes becomes fifteen months becomes twenty minutes
And now i real as wait a minute
The tiptop doesn't control me
The youtube doesn't control me
The doesn't control me
This is in my power
And now i can get longer longer before i have to give into the distraction
So that's just one technique out a dozen that you can use that i dechnibe in the book
But that's one that i that i used quite a bit still today
And i can give try try
So before i follow cheggitps suggestiontly do a little bit really easy task to begin with
And then you're like kind
Kind a getting to the working mode
And then you can just start doing a more difficult and complex and the thing that you don't want to get get get what you can
Everyeverybody is a little different in terms of what they want to work on win it's not so much about scheduling based on the difficulty persae
Some people like to do this technique to eat the frog
Where you do the hardest thing think what people like to work on easeasy stuff
And then get going
I think
I don't necessarily think you can play with that
What's important is that you set aside the time
The big mistake that a lot of people make is that they keep it to do list
And a to do list on its own is one of the worst things you could do for a personal proctivity
It's terrible
Because a to do list has no constraints
A to do list is just a register of things you want to have done
But if you have outputs
Where's the input right
So if if if um uum
If my daughter has a birthday
Or your ughter has a birthday right
And you go to the baker
And you say hey
I need to butch it to cupcakes
Kes i need a zzen cupcakes
The akakers going to say ocave to make a dozen cupcakes
I need sugar
I need flower
I need better tter
And need the inputs
Order to make the output of a dozen cupcakes
But for knowledge workers
What's the input
We know what the output is
The output is all that stuff on our to do this
But what's the input
The input is just two things
It's not better shggand flower
It's time and attention
That's it so where is it
It's not on a dedo lest
That's output the input is on your encounter
So when you say hey
I need to work on this big important task to just put on here to do list it's stupid
It's not going to get done
It has to be in your calendar
Now here's heis the most important thing
Many people make this mistake
When they start time boxing
And they say ok
I'm going to a work on this task for thirty minutes for hor
Whatever they think that to succeed
They have to finish the task
Because to do this have trained us stupiddly to measure our self worth by how many cute little boxes we check off
Ii would go back h to do this
So me
Me tell you how foolish ed this is i used to do a task
And then remember
Oh My gosh
I forgot to put on my to do this
So i would go back on my to do this
Just so i could write it down and check it off
We understand it's
It's so silly
Because we think
Oh
Look at many things i accomplished
But if we're honest
Yeah
Ah it feels good but to be honest
What did we do
We did the easy stuff
We did the urgent stuff
We didn't do the hard and important work
We need to do to move our lives and career forward
Right so it's
It's poinless ous
Because you don't get extra points for doing easy things right that's not the stuff
That really moves your life forward so instead
This is very very important
When you time box a task
And you say i'm going to work on this thing for an hour
Whenever the case might be
It's not about finishing
There is no requirement to finish
The only requirement is to work on that task or do that thing for as long as you said you would without distraction
That's it not about finishing working on that task for as long as you said you would without distraction
Why is that so much better
Because that is the only way
You will know how long things take the biggest problem with
With how people managed their time
Today is that when you use this stupid to do this technique
Can you check off a bunch of two boxes
You have no idea how long things take
Here's what happy is okay
I've got this big project anyneed to work on
Okay i work on it for five minutes
And then know
You know what i really could use some tea
Let
Let me just go get some tea for a minutes
And Oh
There
There's billy at at at the water ore or hey has a go go
And you start chat getting
And
And let me just chk email for a quick minute
Oh
My gosh look with happy in the news weight
What am i working on again toll it forgot
And so you have no idea how long things taken it turns out on average things take three times longer than most people estimate
So when people say okay
How long will this take it turns out
It actually takes them three times longer to finish
Because they have no clue
How long things take
Whereas when you say yourself ook ay
I'm going to work on this task
对对
And do nothing
But i'm not going to do anything
But work on that task for thirty minutes
That's it novel
Email
No distraction
Nothing
But that task
Now i can say okay after thirty minutes
How much i do
Oh
I have to make this presentation are right well
I know the presentation needs to be about thirty slides
And look i finished about thirty slides
So that means i need nine more time boxes
In order to finished the entire task
Now i have a feedback loop
对的对的对对
Whereas with to do do st you have no idea
How long things take so time boxing is much much better than to do this
So if you have a planner
You take out the planner
Every day you so ok ay got these are my working hours
How much time do
Do i want to spend on on email
How much time do i need to spend the meeting
How much time do i want to spend at the gym
How much time i want to be with my kids
How much time do i would need to spend reading all the things you want to do this is
This is where the second step comes in of turning your values into time
What are values valvales are attribute to the gym
You want to become so people people spend their time
According to how other people want them to spend their time
Very few people take a step back and say wwent mit
How do i want to spend my time
And so that's where we have to make a trade off
Because you can't do everything
You can have everything
And you can do everything
Nat the same time you can't work on a big project and be with your daughter at the same time doesn't work
That way you can't have be the gym
And uuh you 'also have have a meeting with your friends at the same time doesn't work
It's
It's very difficult
You have
You can have it all
Do it all is at the same time
So at time boxing forces you to do is to say okay
I want this much time
I'm here
And that much time there invariably you won't be able to do it all all
Because it makes you make those trade offs
Which are to do this doesn't make you do
And that's why the end of the day you're difficult
And you still feel it even acaccomplish from much
就是i wanted step back back little it into the ai era
How we builbuilproduct
So that you were
You are saying that um technology company wanto use a product
More and more and more
I am not sure you from me there was this a new product
Tolen
Tolan
It's like ai companion thing
He has just kind of like human um atency thing like for example i was raising caterpillars with my daughter from monarch caterpilars
And
And like couple days later
He said me this really man
It's pocast about this migration of the monarch
And then today is amme a sixty minutes documentary ate the the whole like mexico tour
How this monarch everywhere in the mountain
It
It tell me like don't do it all i once
Then give me like kind
Kind provoke my curiosties
And then remembers my preferences quite a lot
I habeen really like trying to figure out
What's the next generation product will be like it's not like domm scrolling
Like mine is scrolling
It's this the thing like just provoke you in the right way
Not the other way
Yeah
I think this is fantastic yeknow
I think this is
This is exactly what i predicted
When i wrote hooked that the investor there's that
That was never back to book the number
Not
Not look number hauand
Where this is four product makers
That there's four steps of the hot
The last
But the hot model is the investment phawhere
The inveinvement makes the product better and better with you
And i predicted back in twenty fourth that as the technology prokers that wasn't calling a ibic then
But we did have algorithms
And i knew what
What would happen with these algorithms is that they would predict what data sources would be necessary to make the product better better with use
So just like how ll tiktok and instagram based on your passiview and behavior will serve you new content
I think we're going to see this with every product conservice
Enterprise
Consumer all kinds of products will have to use that data to improve with use
And this is really a characteristic of habit from ing products is that unlike products in the physical world
Right you're clothing
Your culture car
All those things depreciate they lose value
The more you use it
Habit forming products do the opposite right they get better and better the more you use it
So what you're seeing with this product is that the more more you use it
The more it's learning about you
And then it can tailor the information that it's providing for you next
It's actually improving your life
Because it knows what you're likely to want to see
Yeah
Um times it's give me like academic apers ers reread do i like like see see more more products like like yeah
Do you do have any ai products like that you like so far in the ai agent era
I think wegoing going see see lot more like actype pe personal personalization in everything
I think
I think sumers going to get very impatient
If companies don't do this right like guy don't just just uh airline airketickets
How many times times i have to enter in same information
Uh you know every time i'd buy a ticket for different like this type of stuff should be as easias taltalking to tratravelation saying okay
Here's my
Here's my information
You know this already like why do i to keep ep ep entering it again again
Anyway you get the point like across companies
I think across engagement experiences
These type product should get
Get ep ep better and smarter
Smarter with use i among financial services
There's so much opportunity to anticipate you know for example
When when you have an unusual transaction and all the fraul ervoyou get know that type of stuff should get a lot smart or based on previous uh behavior as opposed to just blank uh
You know having people having to
To wrin or or calling uh
I think all education products
I'm particularly excited about
I think on my education is about to have an tremendous revolution
Because you think sitting as a student
And just listening to some boring teacher blab lab lalable on is
Is not engaging ing
Not the way
Ah humans are meant to learn
Humans are meant to learn through interacting
Through a tutor model
So i'm very very excited about the future of duducahopefufully your daughter's young enouough to experience this in her lifetime
Where i think students will start having some kind of individual ai tutor that will take very boring subjects
And make them interesting as they all should be
Because all of us have this spark of human curiosity and activity
But were kind of squashed into a little box of yeah
But you have to sit here
And you know do what everybody else does all the same time
All the same speed
And i think that
That should be done away
With we should go back to what existed before institualized learning
Where you know
If you think about mostart
If you think about newton
If you think about einstein
You know these people learned
Because they were curious
They didn't have a homework assignment
They wanted to know something very adaptive alkoriism for individuals exexactly we're stting to see like alpha school for example
There's
That's just the tiputy iceberg
I think we're going to see a lot more
Now i don't know if the legal structures in place and the societal structures
I think unfortunately school is more about child care and
And abysitity
But then it is about lelearning yeah so so society kind has to accept that ah not not only reason on send children n this this dren that we all all school uh that actually it's about promoting curioity ity and ativity
But if we don't do that we're just going to lose yet another generation
I mean for even even in our generation
How many many sujects cts do never want to see ever again
Like i had terrible physics teacher in high school
I never want to learn physics ever again
Because it completely destroy the joy
It
But it's a beautiful subject
And i'll never get to experience it
It like who know
Like i might have
I might have really enjoed it and learned lalagh from it
But because i had a really bad teacher
Have another question that i'm done to ask you
So for example
Like there's really valuable
Like deep conversation
Like what we're having right now it's pocast form like long of video form
And there's also like short form
Like tiktok those kind of what do you think there are a long term consequence of this kind of like a fragmented attention
Uh is there a way to design product kind of like uh combine stickiness and depth
Yeah Yeah
I think there is
I think you typically technologies don't die typically uh
So i don't think that short form will kill long form
I don't think that video kills the book
Yei think think there's a different place for different technologies
So for example
Chopsticks okay
Uh choptics were invented way before the fork
Uh
Almost everybody who uses chopsticks
Has seen the fork
The fork is a newer technology
And yet we use both so the fourth in replace place chopsticks
So when you eat some food oooods eat them with the fork
When you eat other foods
You eat with chopsticks based on the food type in the context
So i think that there will be a place for short form
There will be a place for short form
There will be a place for whenever is coming after uh both of the mediums and uh we will use the technology for what it does best
So there are definitely some context where a paper book and uh a pen is very useful
There's other places where a thirty second tektocliliis more useful
Based on what what thethere for right
But don't you worry that there's people all like on a especial young people getting their news from like tiktok
There they don't have time
Or they don't form hahappy to relike on a complex topics
Do you think that help be problem
Problem
I think whenever there is a proliferation of a new medium
We're going to find the goooods and bats of that medium
And
And what what we're experiencing that the repercusons of a blessing
The blessing is that for the first time in history
Wehave little cury rates
We have technology adoption rates
We and we have leasure rates
Where people can spend time doing this kinof stuff
And so what's going to happen invariably is that sometimes people see things that you don't agree with
And maybe they make things you'd agagree with
But beliebelieve that's a good thing
That the antidote to one type of speech is the other type of speech but need both sides we need that debate
Uh we need different perspecves is as long as we can guarantee that there's free access to different perspectives
I think that's how we solve this problem at top
Not always immediately
Sometimes it takes cycles of us pursuing the wrong path to figure out
Why that that path was wrong
This is you know how human beings have always plouded through history is by trying one idea
Seeing what happened
If it doesn't work
We try a different idea but over the long arc of history
But this is what happen so
So i don't know anythink
This is something we need to be afraid of
Of course
The certain types of speech we should
I think regularly right you can't inside violence for example so ii think there is you know some speech that that at least for my american centrc lends
I think should be off limits
But for the most part
I'm not really worried about how people spend their time online you know within limits
Of course i think as the most part it's a good thing to have diverse perspectives
I think the last last couple of question is i wanted to talk about how we raised the next generation back to the earlier topic
Um so in distractable
You talk about agency as we uh as the lever against distraction
But uh for kids for teenagers
How do we kind of help them to form that kind a agency
When they like don't have it yet can you talk a bit more about about how we help don't get stracact easily
And then how do we raise them properly no
So i think we need to help them do the same thing we are struggling with
I think everybody is struggling with distraction
You know one of the best best things you can do as a parent
If you want to raise industrictive kids is to be an induststractable parent
You can't tell your kids stop playing video games and meanwhile you're checking email on your phone
It doesn't work
That way you have to set the example
And so i think a lot of parents struggle with being vulnerable in front of their kids
They think they need to be perfect in front of their children
They can ever make mistakes
Children need you to be vulnerable
They also loto say where you're struggling
Especially it's something they struggle with uh and you can't be a ypocris
So the worst is to do one thing
And say something else the the second worse is not adggwith
Hey
We're all struggling with this
So it's okay to tell your kid
Hey
Look these devices are super interesting
I love to use my no
I also love to watch videos
I also like to play games
But there's other things id like to do with my time as well be with you
Be with my
My parents
You know have do the things that uh also help help me have a fulfilling life and so doing it together
I think is is a key starting with those very same four steger so step number one mastering internal trigger
So if you want to help your child have the best possible future
You need to teach them how to deal their emotions in a productive way
That's absolutely critical and understanding what's in their way
Why are they using their devices in excess
Typically what's happening is for kids
Is that when kids don't get what they need offline
They look for it online
So when kids don't get enough time for play
I think this is
This is a big problem in in an industrialized world
Is that we so hyper regiment our children
Between the test preprep and the swimming lessons and balway and all the things that we regimment our kids to do
We have no time for what
I think is the most psychologically important thing for them to do
Which is to play just to play with other children
It's incredibly important
And we have to unfortunately it doesn't just happen
Organically we have to schedule time for them to have time to play
That's where they learn their play
Their place in the world
So when
And what we find is when children have that time to play
Guess what they don't want anto use their devices
Right the promise
The parents don't plan that time they're lazy
They come home
And then they see their kid on their device
And say why are you on your phone go to go go read a book
Come on
Would you have gone read a book
No
But if a kid has the opportunity to play with their friends
That's typically what they wanto do
So i think that's
That's very important
To satisfy those psychological needs of free play to make sure that those um internal triggers of
Of boredom and lliness aren't satisfied online
They're satisfiy through real world interaction
Then schedule in the time
Then making time for traction
Doing what you did of
Hey
Here's all the things you want to do with your time
There's nothing wrong with going on the device
But how does that fit in your day step number three hacking back the external triggers
This is very very important
嗯
The problem with technology and children isn't so much
The technology itself it's what it displaces so
Anything that beeps buzzls or boos in the bedroom
Needs to be taken out
Children should not have screens in the bedroom
They shouldn't have television
They shouldn't have a redroom
They shoulhave a fish tank
They shouldn't sleep with pets
Anything that disrupt sleep needs to be out of that child's room
That's a big big factor in terms of psychological well being sleep is incredibly important
Then the force that is preventing distraction with packs
So teaching your child and yourself how to make these commitments that you will do it
You say you're going to do
And so these are the same four basic steps that i talk about indistractable that you can use on yourself
And of course we have to teach our children awesome
Awesome be vulnerable and learn together with so child and face problem together
And then you have a fine children and make sure that you know what you're doing
You reads books ks and read a book
But i think
I think it's important
I think the most important thing is
Is to not be scared of technolology
I the the easist thing to do is for a pair to say well that didn't exist
When i was
Was a id id
So it's bad
This is happhappened
It's
It's led a moral panic
And i that's
That's a big mistake
Because what what you
You teachyour kid
If you say i'll get of technology technologies melting your brain
It's bad for you well you're teaching them that they you should use it
The john is the future require them to use these techlology
Or you'der our kids to tetechnology
Or the'll be unemployed
I know like chinese parent don't date anyone
Until you're a graduate from college like final spouse right now
Yeah
Exactly
Exactly
Where where why are you marry yet well
Because you told me up to stiny body
It was the same exact thing
We wanted to be
To be familiar with a technology
And to learn from a very early age
How to say okay enough
Now i need to do something else
Thank you so much
Near for joining us um you mention that there's tspspr resources on your website near and far dot com right
Exactly that's right
So it's near not my
My first time
And i are and far dot com okay
We will put in our show now
And then if anyone like one more information from you
And there's book
And there's tsspr rescom um
Thank you so much
Thank you again my father
Thank thank thank thank
Yeah
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