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嗨 大家好呀
我是科技早知道的节目监制刘灿
今天九月麻省理工科技评论报道
亚马逊创始人贝佐斯已于近期投资了专注于抗衰方向的生物科技公司鲁斯elwaps
这是一家今年四月才成立的致力于推动重编程技术的抗衰老公司
科研团队包括二零一二年诺贝尔奖获得下
诱导性多功能干细胞知名研究学者山中申明
在尚未有任何产品诞生的情况下
埃鲁斯wapp 在今年的上半年已经吸引了至少二点七亿美元的投资
投资者的名单包括另外一位硅谷的亿万富豪尤里
米尔纳
事实上
这已经不是硅谷富豪们第一次入局抗衰领域了
早在二零一八年
贝佐斯就和十人陪跑的联合创始人彼得蒂尔共同投资了伊利莉biotechnology
这是一家最早实现靶向清除衰老细胞药物商业化落资
早在二零一八年成功上市这个公司
如果我们要继续追溯硅谷富豪投身抗衰老领域的故事
其实还可以从二零一三年谷歌创始人那里佩奇宣布十亿美元投资calicon 启动抗衰工程项目开始讲起
我们有理由相信
在颠覆互联网
物流制造
航空航天等领域之后
硅谷的下一个目标就是通过生物工程技术实现人类长生不老的梦想
本期节目我们邀请到了同样在抗衰领域被视为明星公司的硅谷新贵grillian 的首席科学官martin boash
Jenson 贵martiinson 在硅谷湾区知名的巴克衰老研究从从事老领领的研究工作
他和主国达打一起讨讨论
在谷谷富豪投投资lof 等生物科技公司背后的原因是什么
他们在关注哪些技术
又将向哪些方向继续发展
这些技术最终将通过什么途径实现商业化落地
最重要的是
人类真的可以突破目前一百二十岁左右的寿命上限
实现想活多久就活多久这样听起来不可思议的目标吗
由于本期节目是英文节目
这里我先为大家总结一下本期节目的精彩亮点
希望这能够帮助大家更好的理解本期内容
节目中
Martin 首先介绍了衰老领域的研究发展历程
他从科学家tom johnson 八十年代通过对蠕虫基因的研究
所绘制出的人类历史上第一个长寿基因图谱开始讲起
论述了衰老是如何在短短近二十多年成为一门单独的学科
他强调
由于衰老涵盖了多种疾病和技术领域
目前的头部抗衰公司主要都是各自专注在干预或者是治疗与衰老密切相关的一些疾病
就比如二兹海默症
眼病 关节炎
糖尿病
癌症等等
这个赛道受到大家关注的玩家
除了近期大热的autosolpse
还有老牌的明星公司
比如ud dy
About technology 和chemical
以及ai 驱动的incircle
Meaicine
还有平台性的初创公司
比如郭丽an 和jeero
Stay alun
嗯
当大家问起主流的抗衰技术都有哪些时
Martin 介绍到
目前有常见于免疫治疗的雷帕霉素靶蛋白抑制剂
也就是m two 抑制剂
和常见于糖尿病防控的二甲双胍靶向抗衰老治疗技术
俗称tame
在抗衰领域里面用的比较多
当然
随着更多的抗衰领域的新发现
包括干细胞重编程技术
当向杀伤衰老细胞的小分子药物signlyys s 也渐受到了了研究员和投投机构构的更多关注
目目前已经面试的抗衰药品
而marmarn 提醒醒我们的
像lcm health 所推出的basis 这种产品
更多是定位于nad 加nmn 类的膳食营养补充剂
它是没有经过fda 的药物监管流程
所以产品的抗衰效果其实有待长期观察
在讨论这一波的免资抑制时
Martin 也提到他的观察
他认为不仅仅是富豪们的加族信托基金对长寿抗衰领域表现出了极大的热情
还有像logevity vision fund 这种长期的专注于抗衰领域的细分vc
以及ordressing horrirh vc 这种头部的风险投资人和投资机构
都对长寿抗衰领域表现出了极大的参与热情
当被问到如何去看待这个赛道的超长投资周期时
Martin 认为
虽然这个领域大部分的投资要等到产品面世后才能够获得回报
但一般来说
只要实验进入到二期或者三期的临床试验阶段
早期的风险投资者就可以看到比较好的投资回报了
Martin 也认为
目前二级市场上unit
Cobar
Agx 这种抗衰老的概念的公司之所以出现股价低迷的状况
是因为二级市场的投资者
他更关注药物实验失败对公司收入的负面影响
但其实药物在二期或者是三期的临床试验中出现失败是很常见的状况
当然了
Martin 也提到
为了规避单一药物研发失败所带来的商业风险
像郭里恩这样关注抗衰技术整体路径优化和成本控制的平台型公司
在商业模式上确实会给投资者争取到更低的边际风险
在探讨到素有硅谷最神秘的生物科技公司charlical 的发展前景是
Martin 认为各家公司在基础基础上的研究是共通的
主要是看谁能够更好更早的把产品落地
事实上
Martin 提到目前抗衰领域最大的挑战就是弄清楚衰老的机制
理解具有衰老表征的疾病和衰老本身的因果关系
是一项衰大的工程
如果能够发现更多的衰老标志物
研究人员就可以加速生物衰老领域的量化研究能力
真正意义上及时有效的干预衰老的过程
嗯
因此像郭典这样的公司就设立了自己的研究奖学金项目
鼓励更多学者关注衰老标志物
如果收听我们节目的小伙伴中
有人正在这个领域工作
也欢迎大家踊跃尝试
申请的链接我们已经放在了本期的生nose 节目的最后打案
邀请martin 分享一些个人的养生秘诀
Marrly 非常真诚的表示
只要规律作息
健康饮食
戒烟戒酒
加强锻炼
不过每个人都可以做到离长寿更进一步
当然
他也提到了间歇性断食这种方法
不过这个呢
因人而异
如果有收听节目的小伙伴想要尝试
记得先咨询医生哦
除此之外
在本期节目中
大家还会听到拥有巴克研究所的西海岸是否比东海岸在生物技术领域上更高一筹
长生不老药lzm 的basis 试用测评到底好还是不好
以及白oviva 的ceo 伊丽莎白
帕时在自己身上尝试抗衰药剂这样的极端例子
在业界否否常举等等有趣的讨论
另外呢
在上一期邀请tiger graph 的慧松讨论图数据库的节目播出后
也有小伙伴在评论区提到他们对图数据库的概念和案例还有很多想进一步了解的地方
十月二十日tiger graph 牵头举办的graph 在ai 二零二一中国线上峰会
或许能够给大家带来更多的启发
大会的报名链接可以在上期的圣生字里找到
有需要的小伙伴记得及时点击链接报名参与哦
好的
我的介介绍就到了理子
接下来就请大家在tiger 和的的汇松一起探索长生不老药的真实面貌吧
Hello
大家好
我是丁酱
欢迎收听全新一集whats next 科技早知道
Laily bases s invein antii aging company called autotoslab
A company that is pursuing biological reprogramming technology a way to rejuvening cells
Actually
It is another first time time zos investing antatii eing tech companies
Tech billionaire has a long tradition investing antii aging ddrugs teg supplement or even hacks
Where are we in terms of the understanding the cause of aging
And when we can expect to see some breakthrough today our guess is martin bosh
Jennen
Cso at gordian bbel technoloing
Which is the first vivo therapuuc screening platform to improve drug deatform for complete disease of aging
Before coo founded gordian
His posa and k ninety nine fellow at the bubug institute for research on aging
Hi martiin welcome come
I am great to be here
So um maybe give ve a little bit about like what a gordian do basically what goordian has advanted since we started a couple of years ago
Is a way to put many drugs into one living animal and test whether any of them do what you want whether they prevenent diseas or reverse to sease or reverse aging and the reason
This is important for biology of aging is that aging ing
And will get into into this in show show agaging isnt like one thing thats one clock that ticking down in all yourells and know exactly what it is its kind of a complex thing that happens within your organism between the different parts of your organim in
So the only way to really know
Whether something works in the context of aging is to be inside of a living animal
So thats why we admit to that techanim
So its like a cockilthat inject into the animal
Right yeah
But with the ability
So you know some people will put you know three different drugs in to try and uh treat something
But they cant tell whether one or all of those are working together or individually
So what gordian has
Is that we can put many therapies in and individual cells inside of that animal
We can tell which therapy that thermis in and whether it was working and so we can
We adreds of different therapist independently inside of the same animal
Instead of getting just like a smoooothmikes up of all the effects of the different drugs
I know you have a background
You got a fellowship at a bargainstitute
So maybe a lot of people they dont know about bug institute is kind of like a prestige research institute for aging ray
Yeah
Thats right in the usi would say this is the main research institute for aging
Um its in located just north of symphonisco
And theres the thing two and and fifty researchers
Something that that its abs focus on to arious different kinds of aging from new to generation to reproductive tive aging to specific genicms like defsand s and cells
So i did my postdog
There before that i did my psdd the um main government research center for aging
Which is the national institute on aging ing part of the national institute of hell in the us is a private one or is a government funing one
Yes
So its named after the initial donor
Who paid for this big building
Its almost literally and iverory tower
Its a big white building on top of a hill
Um designed by in pay there was initial donor
The buook family and
And since then they are supported both by grants from the government
Like you know all the other research universities as well as from various private donors is there anything thats kind of on the market
Already was still like how long has been this institive existent it started
I believe in from nineteen ty now then they had to build a building
So its about two decades old
But it is a basic research institutes
So the goal there is to understand ageing into generate knowledge around aging
However there are several companies that have sppown out of the book
Most well known probably as unity biotechnology well ow univerdees from ding interesting from the book end from male inic one of the scientific founders
Uh duty companes is uh at the band
They was actually and acwas physically ininof the bubconstitutute renting spout untitil they think scicimpthanis go um
And then more recently i think an aapathof putigues
And there n be their institutes and dear state alpha
And i think thats it in terms was spbeen out
So the other day i was talking to your coo on their francis coo
It is kind of weird
Because normally when you think about biopotec companthey right its mostly a boston like east coast and all antii agecompany is in the bay area like a lot of them
Is that because the bog institute
And dont think thats the only reasreasso and west coast tends to be more adventurous
Lets say oh
Right like theres a reason
That the people who want to go to mars
Arent launching from boston
Its like a california alright ah and the people who build ai and robots and all these things
So boston is definitely a big biotech cub
But its maybe a little bit less sort of frontier
And i think the aging and londiity dedefintely tely folall into that category of of tech research
So thats my guess
Although i do think that the bock probably played a role in creating a big hostie and for londevity research
And i would say saanancisco probably the in the us the top hub for uh on gevity research
Thats cool
Because this this been a domain
Thats not been very i dont know but very hard for the past few years
Because been like robot really a hard like bcocolike criptiles are those kind of domains are always like hot on the kind of newspaper are not entitaing
But yeah i dont have the problem with aging research is that you trying to make things live longer
So the experiments kind of take a long time
哈哈哈哈
So its not as fast as you know doing stuff on a computer
But its been growing
I mean certainly ive been in the field a bit over ten years
Uh when i first joined it was not like a normal topic
So people dont really know what youre talking about at this point
There is a lot of interest
You mentioned altos earlier
Obviously clical a couple of other organizations
That are starting up in this
In like very larstubujects
So its becoming more and more uh a mainstream thing like why is that
Its just because like feel bill in aye
They just have their personal interest ger and is in a poor money in like why is that was some tech that kind of i just just have that work
So thats what we hear
I think its because stuff works i mean
I dont mean stuff works as in like i have a drug
That i can sell you and they exstend your lifespan like were not there yet
But i mean animal models
We have a lot of different ways to make them live longer and prevent to sease
And
And that is relatively recent
The first before that is in the sixty seventies
Eighty nineties
It was kind of you know people were talking about aging
Theybeen talking about aging for thousands of years
But nobody knew anything
People they know like theres a big problems of the field paper that i read from like nineteen
Nineteen ty years
Something like that
And that one question was are there any genetic changes that make you age slower
Um Then
Then that wasnt known um
And then in the late nineties
Two different blab tom johnson and subsequenties in the opinion identified mutations in the swarm species that often years and blab experiments that made them live basically twice as long as normal
And so you know
There was a fundamental discovery for the aging field
But it wasnt well known by any means
And there wnt nt aging field
So not that many people were paying attention
But before that we didnt even know
That we could
That you could extend lifespan
Right then
Since then
Its been kind of a city trickle from like a amsevenof ty ty mand
And that more in the two thousands
Where we found different ways where kind of modulate the rate of aging in animal models
And thats just you know got more and more robust
And now its getting noticed that
Oh
Thats actually a think you can do
And when you think about it
Thats like its totally crazy
If you could like double the lifespan or even just these fifty percent of healthy lifespan to an organism like a human we cant do that yet but equivalent would be something like the eldof of talking
Or something like that right like just these like totally different creatures
That have a totally different perspective on life
So when you think about the possibility
The rate of aging can be changed
That starts to be kind of a big deal
And i think that people like veeses various others are getting interested in it
Because it is such a big deal
The only reason
It hasnt been a big deal before is its big big in like a snake oil sort of of very its a very long time
Right i mean
Weve had it quote on cte agaging curres for thousands of years
They were
I think the first amprove of china supposedly tely was peddququick silver by his antty aging
People right right ah and shyour re ong
So its been an area with where people have been promising things
And is been lilong time
And thebeen been zero delivery
And thebeen really first time
And so they been last couple a decades started to have any real effects were overlooked for a bit
And that
Thats kind of theyre getting attention
Its like were starting to final some my scientific proof
Thats something might work
I know my husband has i think i was like three four years ago
When allessian just came out
And then he started like had a subscription over elecium
And then i ask him
Like why did you stop
Like why i did you feel anything after taking
And hes like i dont know anyanything youre not supposed of anything after taking
King like how i dont know
Know that gonna work notes that you cant
嗯 Exactly
And its tough for you know theres two problems for a company like elisium
One of them is that the supposed benefits are gonna be like decades from now right so humans arent really mentally geared to that degree of delayed gratification um and of course theres some uncertainty like you dont know for it works
And you wont know for a long time
And so its hard to maintain enthusiasm
Right to keep doing something i mean certainly do do diet or something eating a palis easiibut
And then the other problem for a company like uncerlisium is that they are selling a product
That is not going to ft approval
And so that means that its not that regulated
You know what they are allowed to sell and say im some supplement
And theres super vague on their description
Yeah
Exactly
And the problem for them with that is so it leasing is trying to be a science based company and drum trials
And have evidence and so forth
But theyre competing against people who dont necessarily if they want to do any of that theyre kind of spending some of their resources on beiling scientifies
But someone else with a different supplement
Theyre better sales person
You know right they can just come and make things up and specifings that dont true
And then you know most people wont people whats prove and suppts not so thats one reason
Why most of the companies uh in the longevity space are focused on making fta approved
Or whatever country theyre in approved
Thebeth for specific diseases because when you then go that out
You on into the challenes that quote on calte ageing isnt the thing that you can treat right
You cant get a drug approved for just that it has to be targeted that specific diseases
So maybe we can talk about little bit like what are the mean approaches
That people are developing their drugs
Like we talk about odles lab theyre ing ing
Proprograming ing
So theres some other ways to accomplish the go
So maybe you can give us a bit little like round ound down at what artimine approaches
Yeah to hopefully accomplished the goal
So so in terms of their puutic approaches
I would say the earlier it kind of follows on what happened in the research fields of ageing
But you know like one decade later
So the earliest approaches
Which still exists have focused on biology around sensing of nutrienents
So theres especially two pathways
The incident sensing pathway
And which called the m tour pathway
Which centires protein we found in the animals
That when you for tlest those pathways
So can can the dearimes ve ve longer
And so their drugs
That are trying to target that kind of biology
Maybe the best known is called repubmiising
Which targets m tour in fact m tour stands ds the maally an target of repromises
So the protein was found to be the target of a drug and repregnition is an improved drought for uh immunal suppression during a transplant
But when you give it to my ice to old mice
They live significantly longer
And so there are some companies
That are trying to make so a various of that kind of biology to improve ageing
There were some companies focused on killueys kilomeres is kind of doesnt actually seem to be that important for aging and probably in or insulting some people here
But certainly at one point
There was considered just the big thing
Now it seems more like they play some role
But its not like an answer to everything instead one thing that has become a very interesting topic
Since the two thousand and ros but the idea of synsand cells
And so these are are cells or in your body
You could think of them as like grumpy retired cells
Its any cell in your body can turn into this state and kind
Kind stops doing what its normally doing but largest a bit
And then sits there and spits its out various um signals including um information molecules
And that seems to be bad for you in variety of ways um causing accelerated ageing of different tissues
And so ununity which taltalked before before was um
I think the first company to try to find small molecule drugs
That kills a nelecuccells
Specifically but leave normcells
Alalum
And they started and see
I think it was in two thousand cells
And since then theres yedont know two dozen other companies
That are trying to to kls in esm cells
So that has been uh a popular approach
And then much more recently is this partial reprogramming that you mentioned um that outtrors is focusing on this is yeah
We should probably have a whole thing on that this a an interesting approach
Where youre trying to basically harness developmental biology and the biology
That your body normally does to turn cells into a not more younger state but a more embrylike state
Turn yyself self kind
Like like into egg again one
Oh
H thats how can
Can visualize it
Its not um strictly whats happening
And there were a couple of papers in two thousand
Sixteen and another one one two thousand and twenty one
Um that show that if you do this
But you dont totally uh reverse yourself state
You just do it
Partially it seem to reverse various features of aging
And so thats a new topic that still very fresh
Lets say uh there are lot of kinks to iron out
Theres a lot of sort of how well does this really work
But in the experimental stage
Which are of these approaches or more and events were all like kind of closer to the market
Can we say that
Yeah
So there have been clinical trials face two clinical trials on svariand of repromiising synican cells
So unity had a clinical trial face there there h now sterythtriris which fafaed uh couple ple years ago
Yeah
So there are now trying to push some eye drugs and their other companies doing syncan cells
So i would guess that within the next i dont know five years its going to be some version of um repromiising and some version of some esm cell killing
Thats looking good and in criminal trials
The reprogramming stuff is going to be more than ten years to ten years happening
You could also say that we already have the first stuff on the market
If you believe that you know repromiising is already in approved drug
Theres another uh compound called medformen which is a drug uh given to tyghtoo diabetics for diabetes
Right yeah
Exactly
So thats already you know lots of people are taking that um if you have diabetes
And theres some data from animal models
That aside from having a positive effect on that eties
It also from having a general positive effect on aging
Now this hasnt been sort of proven in clinical trial in human
Yet there are people
Who are trying something called the tame trial tame uh whether trying to test medform in just for h diabetes
And theyve been trying to get funding for that trial for a ing
I heard the people in the entire aging space
And thereall taking right is that true
Not Oh
But
But some people are
Yes
Theres a range of sort of like how adventureous again you are
I think for all of these things
We have to remember that
Until youve test like biology is tricky
If something works one way in one context in biology
It works differently in a different context
And nothing is really you know its not like uh one dimensional good on one end
And bad on the other end
And you just got to get more and more good stuff
And like avoid bad stuff
It all depends on your specic cumstticts
And what else is going on in your life for instance
If you go on a diet
If most people on average
Thats probably good
If youre overweight
Thats and definitely good
If youre underweight
Then its bad for you right like exercise its definitely good for you in almost all circumstances
But if youre out of food
And your sort of walking through the desert
And shouldnt be doing pushshops
So everything depends on you know the situation
Youre in so the same is through like for these drugs
That theyve been sted in animimthat are in a very control led environment
And we need to know what they do in in humans
And will they work in some people or in all people
And so far
So until that those things have been tested directly we dont know for sure
And then the question is question
That faces all these people in the eating field
Um should you take my form in anyway
Which comes down to do
You think that like the odds are in your favor do you think that theres a better chance
That it does something good than that it does something bad
For you and for my form
And for instance
I think one reason that one is popular
Is that you know tens or hundreds of thousands of abetics
Have been taking it for a long time
So were pretty sure that they are not sort of serious negative effects
So the odds of it been good
Dont have to be as high
That you know some other things that might have horrible side effects
Yeah
I know this space theres a lot of scientists
And theyre doing a lot of like a hacked on themselves like this uh article
I was reading the eo of bio
Viva Liz
Parish
Yeah
She been injecting
Herself is like cocktav virus in gene land for years
And she does look young
I dont
Dont like i na doing that on herself traay
Herself like a patient zero is that like a normal in the space
And especially
I would say the people who go to that degree of sort of bio hacking
I dont know what your definition of scientists is
But if its like i work at a research lab
At a university
And i have apsc that tends to not be the people who go for the sort of extreme experimental stuff
There are some people
I think its mostly ahh know what gets covered in the news and in the media
And so forth right obviously the most extreme cases or what gets covered but ninefive percent of people at the book constitute or the essenence to donagaging or place
Like that like arent doing anything
That not like everyone in the country
Uh is doing so in terms of like uh capital so are there are a lot of vs are interesting this space
Right now or mostly just from like private family office ers really like just individual rich people
Theres interest from both of those
There are some vc that are specipically focused on llggevity things
So just sort of going off the top of my head
There res longevity fund
Which is here in ananancticgo orordeming
Theres juvenfenwhich
Which is based in the uk
Theres longevity vision fund
Theres apollo and germany
Theres biassuo and germany
Specithree more culed some barly end of longevity
So there are number of vc funds
That are specifically focused on managing biology
And then there are also plenty of sof biotech funds
That are interested in onggevity ures was vc behind that was art inteintewhich is a very vununuh biotech vc here in the us
So they clearally had some first there yeah in recent horrowaves has invested in activity companies
General horroallists some of their sort of silicon valley biotec interested h funds are also focused on that as well as obviously specific family offices
Yeah
Because i was scais
Because
Because mally ally their return cycle is like a ten years that probabnot gna cocover a whocycle of a drug development for especially at frontier ewell like entii aging
So when in terms of like their strategy
I would just like why are they invest in this space
Because definitely going to take longer for their return
Yeah
For sure
But you after remember also that liquidity event for the bc is typically comes much before theres an actual drug approval
So the majority of biocc companies that succeeded or that dont fail
That say their fate is to be bought by a pharma
Something where where like like ace
Ace because maybe facace two clinical trials
Er so that that point because c is get their returns another path is that the company goes public
At which its point again the v ses can cash out what regardless of what happens later in the market
Right now youre seeing companies go public
Sometimes even if they
They start ted clinical
Ical als um
Which is much earlier than it used to be
So i guess that thethey re not abc
But i think that
Thats
Whats happening is that they dont need to see
You know most for the cs arent investing in the company hoping to go all the way to drug approval
Right because we did a episode about seacdeallic
Because there were some seadec company is the ipo for the past year
Yeah compcompass for instance
Right so they just like theyre not that far ahad in clinical trial
But they do when public but in terms of like the space in entiaging there are company like unity and some other company but
But they the start market is not like compreally like kind of buy in so for example unity when they went public to on eighteen share prices
Sixteen point seventy five
And now is say two dollar ninety six kind of like a significant dropped like way they is that well for unity thats very simple
And i think this is the general al grais
And that unity had to face two trial failed like by mantic companies just comm and their first program
And maybe their second program
And so unity had their flacship program
Me and alst your authorities sts you il face two clinical trials
And at that point to their stock just totally tanked so seconseconday to markets know they totally look so how they you doing in the clinic
And every little piece of evidence for against is you know going to affect your share price for unity
Know yre going to have a tough time coming back from that failure
And they have one more program running
If that doesnt work well i guess is the company is gnnease to exist
Do you think that will affect a whole intelligent space doesnt seem to you know i have that thought of like you know the first company kind of have to succeed
But its normal that biotech companies fail phynical trials like thats not what you want
Of course
But most techical ical als dont succeed
Through coface three uh
Most rugs gs work work so in the same way that most tech startups you know dont become google or anything so i think its kind of understood its not indicative of the aging field
Its normal for biotech in general that many thing and up not working so h about other company
Company know already cein public like frefreency
Really like cobar a jax those companies
Yeah
Cobar i mean also just like just a stuff work or not
哈哈
In the secondary market is just all about can you prove in the clinical trial that your thing works
And can you get to revenue
Which is usually in the form of the are approval
There is considerable revenue that can be a crude from having partnerships with larger farmer companies
But all of that stuff
Its not
I dont think its like a meda so the devtic companies in any sense
Its just like do they have stuff
Thats getting close to approval
Or that looks really promising in late stage clinical trials
Um
And they dont so then the share price is low
If you go go sort ort biotetic companies
That and look at their share price over time time you going to see these extreme jumps like you know three x or four x from day today
And when they ananouncce their clinical trial results
And thats when it went well
When they doesnt go well
You see the same thing
But they dont have many chances
Really if you have like one two fails in the clably
The company just like his sad ly seees to exist most biotic companies is are centered around either one asset or one sort of drug candidate or maybe a class of drug candidates
But that are very similar to each other
And therefore theyre quite correlated in outcomes
And yet when it doesnt work
Often the company becomes kind of like asombie company
Maybe there res still techniqually alive
But like nobody is very biolish on them
And theres a chance that they can miracuously pull off a come back
But usually that doesnt happen
Nowadays
There res companies like gordian are different uh in that there whats calls often calall platform companies so instead of being centered around a specific type of biology with one of more assets
The way unity is there basically were going to kill in lessson cells we have these two molecules
We are focused on a platform that can discover red new theraputics nowadiled the technology platform that isnt limited to just like a single asset
But is you hofullly better
Better other identifying assets
That work than other approaches
And so that type of company
I think will have a better ability to whether the failure of any single drug
And with the right investors
Theres a bit more patience ts thesort of the stas what asnt the intetake that ok
Its okay that youre not succeeding
Yet because youre starting and growing and growing and by the time you start cashing in its gonna be really big deal
And so that type of company is because not new perperay you ksay that youre first specific company to ntick was a platform company
Because they just had a way to make new protein drugs
They didnt have a specific single asset
But then theres an interm phase
Where platforms wasnt really the focus
And now they are starting and growing and in the last i dont know its hard to put date on things
But it say a decade
Because they just fully other people
People are also developing and tigating drugs
Because youre
So you are the platform
No not necessarily so it can be that you are selling your services to other companies
Uh there are some companies that do that lets say uh at am wise there are some sort of a ddrudedevelopment or rurudesigsign
And so they their business model seems to be to make deals with lots and lots of a other companies
And then take small oonership of each of those drugs
The dynamics of of bitetech are such that there are sort of specific value infliction point
Where once you have just like a target for a disease
For like how to treated dedesease thats not really worth much
Then once have shown in an animal
That it actually reverses the biology
That you say it will
Then it becomes worth like a lot
More tenets or more
And in once you have any kind of positive data in a human
Then you have another value infliction point
And so things arent really like golf standard is doesnt curure animal of some model of your disease before that happens its not worth a lot
And so if you try to go really
Really broad and just partner everything with other people and sort of cost of good your ability to generate a new thing
But to be really
Really
Really
So you can make a lot of money
There but ends up happening with most companies
Even if they start out utrtrying do do that thing
That they
They ventually decide
That they want to have more ownership in the drugs
That are coming out of their platform
And so they become like genetic or like moderna
They become a company
That has a broader portfolio of things
That theyre trying sometimes with interebusiness structures
Where its kind of spenning out assets as independent companies
Sometimes not but still going broad
But trying to open the drugs themselves
And thats also what good din does like we are a drug development company
A business model is the same as genetic god we can do well on the same trajectory
And then once you
You have a platform
Thats kind of also a business model
And then you can also develop your own drugs
Yeah
The platform makes you more robust
Right it means that
If one thing fails not everything else all the value in your company is tibuof with uh that thing
The other reason you
You do platform um well at least for guaudium the technology weve builto
And something that allows us to test dramatically more things in animal models of disease
Than than other companies are able to
And thats
Because of what i told you before testing it
What called led viruo in the living creature is really when the first time that you start having high confidence
And so whatever as that you have
And so weve decided to take that point
And really parallize will how much we can do at that stage
Not only because that makes us more bust st also because
Because can map out every possible drug
That you could imagine for a disease
And then pick the one will come the yes profile in vivo
And move forward with that one into chemical trials
Because clinnical trials are really expensive
So once you commit to one target or one asset
And start moving it into clinical trial
Youre locked in for like hundreds of million of dollars
And so you really want to know
You know
Do i have the best one uh beforehand for example like google calicical like what are they doing because google has like really deep pocket
Do you think thats that kind of like a good model to a just like rely on on a big company
And in basically youre just good for a long time
是的
Instead of going public or like racing rounds and rounds of money
Yeah
I mean
I magine ine their prosin cons
The pro is that you dont have to get distracted with like what your investors want right now
Or its the the market cess right now
And you can maintain a long term vision
The con is that stdont have the same way
That a start of does
Sort of fear of death
Sort of damage is constantly hehofic hering over you
And so not working as hard
Maybe um its calico is pretty secretive
So its not clear
Everything theyre doing
You know it is clear
That theyre doing both sesearch rebasic ic know know just understanding how different aging processes work basicicate like academium not not mamaintain a happhappened at the bug
And theyre doing some ddk dedeveloment momostly a ongs
That
That theyuh license from
From other universities
The
The viand
Some of the things theyre working on seem to be aging
But they also have a portfolio
Thats honestly just kind of cancer drugs
So of course cancer is a disease of ageing
But its not not clear
How that that ananance is going to be moving forward
And then they say they are doing very types of technology development
But overall they havent been doing a ton of publishing
And they havent started a lot of sort of high profile trials
So its hard to say what exactly cheicical is planning to do pursubbly something planting long teruh since they have all that money
We talk about for drugs like a repemizing and uh senonytics
So those are gonna be shorter term
Wegonna see theyre onna come onto the market
And then reprogramming in other stuff llonger term
So for example like whathe the art is like of sting
So theterms of developing this drugs is there still like clinical trials
Or its just some scientific like theory does not proping yet yeah memean we dont know how aging works
We can say that anyway way know know lot lot things
Things how cleing works
But its not like we have a complete process or everything thats happening
And therefore we know exactly what to do
So when someone goes and developed drugs for synlitics s because we know aa lot of evidence that synlitics play some ing role in the aging process
And therefore they have some tie to diceases of aging
But thethere not playing like the entire role of whats driving aging
And so you are taking a bit that for this disease killings and lessen cells are moving them in some way its going to have a big enough effect on the average patient
Some of who might have developed the disease
One way
Some of who might have developed the disease ase different way way that you re going to pick up a final in the clinnical trials
And so thats true for all drug development
But its at least thats true for aging and for ageing
There is a one big challenge
Which is that most of the basic research that happen focuses on the fespan and making you know my sleep longer things like that but when you get to the clinical trial stage
You have to go after one specific disease
And so theres a gap
They are what you take your aging drurug
Then you
You to to deciafter which disease do we after after so so res a different instance to a lot of work
But its long disesetras didisease uh after your thread is probably others to figure out where do we think its most likely that this drug on this one disease is going to have an effect
And that gap well it is certainly making it a lot harder for bibitecompanies to go ad after agememeisisbecause
Because the whopremimiof of agaging field is that
These mechanisms of ageing are connected to many different diseases
And so if you are measuring sort of a penanly of disesease
And then you re doing that a bloger er period of time
Then you should see an effect
Thats what cltring ing the lap right were feeding some drug
And then over time you see less incidents of diseases
But thats not how clinical trials are designed for the most part
Theyre designed as you have this disease
And were trying to reverse it
And were only looking at one single diseases
So thats
Thats a barrier and a better understanding um exactly dothat that bibiloloical ical chanisisms p to meet the mandifestation of specific diseases
Would be very helpful for the field
The other big thing
Thats missing is biomarkers
Which is ways of measuring whats happening by logically in a snapshot
And so for example blood pressure or collestter all or biommarkers of heart disease
Because we shown over decades of work work
And if you have higher blood pressure
You have hihigher risk heart disease
And
And they eld really needs is human biommarkers of aging
That for dict the incidents of multiple diseases
They can kind of tell you how biologically all you are because not not can you then measure those directly in clinical trials
And hopefully get an insight into multiple diseases
And what your risk of multiple diseasare but also you can do it a lock
Faster
Right like for to run a typical ageing experiment
The way we do in the lab
Right a technical trial
Youd have to start giving people didrug
When theyre for work
And follow them for forty years
We cant do that right is impossible
So what we really need is some way to measure right now whats going to happen to you over the next forty years
And so thats really really resting uh topic in the field of sort of aging research
Now we knows like we want the length
Our
Our teer s
So we know thats one of the arm its get shorten
And then we have like less lifespin
So are be just barely scratching
Like it tting just spreading scratching the surface of like aging science
And like how much we know about its how to say right like what of the
I can tell you that what of the known unknowns is we know that know know depending on how you slice it
But lets say a dozen different types of biology
That seems important for eighty aging process
So we know that there are these various things within each of them
We certainly dont know everything
We probably know less than half of what there is to know about this type of biology
But maybe more importantly we dont really know the relationships between these things
We know that short talueters can cause synssm cells
But in you are actually body
How often does the esssons results from short teomeyears
There is something else like what are the relationships between these different biology go mechanisms are there are some that we should target because those are upstream of many other things that are happening
And this is a nown unknown
I know
Know that it would be important to figure that out
And we havent been able to yet or just sort of slowly giving away at it
But then the unknown
Unknown like
But then we
We nown about aging
Thats
Thats obviously very hard to say i guess
My
My guess is
And this is definitely a guess is that with everything we know
Now as i mentioned
Well be able to develop drugs over the next
I dont know develop them over the next five to less than ten years
And then you have to run through ggal triles
Just do some for aging processes and kind of show that they work over the next less than twenty years
And thats going to improve health in a broadway
But is in a limited way
You know youre talking about
Lets say just guessing twenty percent reduction of incidents of these different diseases
Something on that
Not more than that which is
Is going to be huge right like the economic impact and the personal so of rejective
The impact of that is would be absolutely massive and easily the biggest thing we can do uh for human health
Other than eradicating all infectious diseases right so certainly we should do that when are we gonna get like something that then totally blows your mind
And you know
Take someone blows all to like yeah live to one eighty
Or take a really all than wrinkle person
And they just really become young
I dont really want to guess
But probably mad than the next twenty years
嗯
Probably whats going to have in first is that were going to do
That to some animals maybe be like
Like peops
S pets
My dogs and cats
There are some companies going after that kind thing
Which ah ah regardless of like the market for that
That uh some susuous doand and that kind of stuff
If you just take someones doagand because
Because it and know make it live to like twenty five people
People going to be like
Oh Yeah
Ah ah have will buy it
Yeah
Ah ah have somethat
Oh
So i think that kind of thing will probably be a catalyst for the field again and within the gragrageup pretinto someexspr a lot more focus because yeah
In the reason
I spend time on biology of aging its but worth for dedicating my life to that is that you look at aa graph of the incidents of most of the diseases
That youre worry about getting you know a galzeimerers and cancer and heart attacks
And it just goes up like pretty much expanentially with age
So theres something going on
There is some underlying biology
Thats making you vulnerable to all these things when you get old
And weve shoshown you know in the worms and the miice
And so so th th that underunderline biology is something you can modulate
And so you know theres a lot of work to do to get it to actually work reliably in humans
But doing that is biggest labor we have on human health
So um can i ask you
Whats your personal like routine to keep useful this and dly its like most of this stuff
Thats going
Going make
Make live lononger you already know its going to make you live longer
Just just
Exercise
Exercise
Dont smoke
Eat less sugar
Eat more vegetables
All those kinds of things right so i did do um so theres something called interinterventing fasting which now means all kinds of things uh the the aging experiments that were done
It typically means like eating every other day
Or if your mouse it means eating every other day
And so i did that during my pc and part of my poststog for four years total just because it seem to in animals
It seems to make them live longer now more recently we figured out that how much you want to be fasting
And these kinds of things depends on the genetics of the animals
And so sort of the right coled on quote those of fasting in humans
We definitely dont know that
And thats part of the reason im not keeping it up
The other part of the reason im not keeping it up is the same as they he diin pills right like you feel nothing
Nothing thing different
It right so you can maintain it
And then when you get super busy for inststance
If youre running a start up
Then you kind of just like its easy to put it aside because if feel re maining or h when you do that
And you have have a worker
He he does uh fasting every six months
Or so
And then he does uh poer up with kind pepper thing
So he will be drinking that for a week
And then i think for the last couple days of that week
I can clearly see that
His spring is lekes super slow and just not working um yeah
But um its kind of like a trendy thing in the valley is still right yeah
For sure
And i mean you know things come and go
Whether its like ice baths or intimidand fast and right the crowd chamber you can just yeah
Exactly and usually
Theres some kind of evidence
Or you know some some kind of study
Either doing that to humans
But like ybe some effect on some markers that might be indicative of health
Or you know you did it to a mise and it helped
And so theres often some kind of science behind it
But like i said early in the episode biology
Really really tricky
Because it works in a certain way and one context doesnt mean it works in the same way
In a different context
But might live longer when they eat every other day
Does that mean humans
They longer when they eat every other day
Or is it because like moumonontableis mister or humans were supposed to be like five days or on five days off or something else we just dont know
Dothent conclusive him thats why we need buy markers
I dont think you have more question
Do you have anything you want to add
I guess i would just some things up as like we know a lot
And we know this can work
And we know theres a lot to figure out
And we need to just do the important work
Answer the important questions
I recently launched a grants program
Where we should sort of academic grants to researchers to focus on the many think that we just dont know yet and inad of getting more more cauup up like
Like whatever is lalatest greatest st thing like this is going to be the sulavable
That is going to answer everything like lets get biomarkers
Lets get ways of measuring whether things are working like lets understand the context dependence of the balloloyou
We have like there is a diamond mind beir
And i think we should focus on getting up that as possias we like
Like Not
Not like comacacent like
Oh
We just need to do more researchcan can take ininfinity
Like we should
哎
There was fast as we can towards that
But not try to jump all the hurdles
And just assume that something is definitely going to work before we know
Know that
Thats true goits its more like infststto trying ah i erial for the little al
But we have more yeah
Ah better tools
Better acputer
Better better ii to help us to achieve ter
Ter
I look at ai
Right like neural nets is not like some mirror
Its like you have enough computer to do it as my limited understanding of the field
Right but like theres a lot of infrastructure
That makes all the amazing stuff happen cool
Thank you so much
Morning for jinining us yeah
I learned a lot
And you was fun go yeah did know
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